What do the Gods get out on their relationships with us?
by Woods Wizard
On September 21, 2011, Ravenari posted this question on the Pagan Veil: “If you are one of the many (or few) who sees gods as individual entities that exist with or without our help (and not as individual greater parts of a whole); what do you think they get out of helping you? Why does a god connect to, or even 'own' someone in an intensive relationship? And how could what we as humans offer ever really be hugely significant to them? Or is it that we bother to make the offerings at all? What do you think the gods get out of your relationship with them?”
Squirrelly decided to present this topic for discussion at their first Wednesday coffee at Reboot Café. The answers were interesting and varied.
The resident cynic of course, blurted out “Entertainment!” Several nearly spewed their drinks, which of course, only gave credence to his statement. After all, how many of us have not, at one time or another, felt that Deity had a good laugh at our expense?
Then the discussion became more serious, though it was hard to stay focused on the original question without addressing what Deity really is. Everyone seems to have their own ideas, even when it comes down to individual Deities. My concept of the Morrigan and how she appears to me, for example is very different from how some others perceive her as the wise Crone.
A number of people on a variety of paths (Hellenic, Wicca, Asatru) perceive a parent-child relationship, with humans in the role of children of course. In this sense the Gods are there to teach us, to help us grow for future lives. A Hellenic told a story of how Hera taught her a lesson on vanity by requiring her to cut her hair, while others cited an ancestral connection with Deity. While Deity may or may not be helping us toward a higher level of spirituality, this line of discussion begged the question of why. What does Deity get out of helping us in this manner? The best response was an analogy to parents getting pride out of watching their children grow, and the reward of teaching them. This ascribes a nurturance role to Deity that really doesn’t fit all of them. Aries or Loki as nurturing Gods is a somewhat difficult concept, at least for me.
The participants who saw Deity in this manner were all mothers, with strong nurturing motivations themselves. That raises the question of whether we perceive Deity in terms of Jungian archetypal images. As such, they exist as we perceive Them, and like certain quantum mechanical phenomena, perhaps Deity does not exist without us to believe in and perceive. In this manner of thinking, what Deity gets from their relationship with us, is everything: Their very existence.
Another participant saw Deity as a personification of energy and that the exchange of energy between mortals and Deity is what the Gods get out of the relationship. As mortals we do not work directly with Deity, but with energy. Deity gets more energy from worshipers than what it would have without worshippers and can therefore channel more energy as they see fit. One would think however, that the further a Being moves from having a material form, the more energy it must have (matter being converted to energy according to Einstein’s equations). Why would a Being of such immense energy need our paltry human contribution?
One person in the group brought up the idea that we cannot know the motivations of Deities. Another countered with the idea that we can look at their lore to understand their motivations. Undoubtedly the further removed a Being is from our Earthly level, the more powerful their energy level. Undoubtedly there are Beings of awesome power and unfamiliar energies so far removed from the human experience that they become unknowable and unfathomable to our limited senses and psychic abilities. But are these the Deities we relate to in our craft?
All these arguments imply that the Gods, at least the ones we can relate to, have motivations. This makes Deity much like us. Some want power; some want a nurturing relationship; some recognition. Most have Their own agenda that They are trying to achieve. Each Deity has a set of motivations unique to that Deity. This makes them psychologically just like humans; just like many of the other spiritual beings with which we share this and other planes of existence.
Plants will grow in the garden without our help, but not the plants we want. Some aspects of Deity are creating and growing the garden as they want it to grow. They have an agenda for us, and it is unlikely that Their various agendas are perfectly aligned. Some of Their agendas may actually conflict, such as in the myth of Prometheus versus Zeus.
Perhaps Poppy Palin said it best in Craft of the Wild Witch. When we take on a patron Goddess or God, we make a promise. We do not promise to worship necessarily, but we do promise, as fellow sentient beings, that “we will express their will, their way and their wisdom to the world. We are incarnate and they are not. We can make manifest change while they are not able to express themselves in a way considered substantial. We have the means of making a difference while on Earth while they may be given little credence in the modern frame of reference. Yet for all the disregard they are accustomed to experiencing in human realms, they have that which is most valuable to us: greater access to truths, to that which is hidden to our mortal eyes at present.”
They are our link to that which is beyond human perception. We are their link to this plane of existence. The relationship is symbiotic, with each of us getting from the other what we need.
Join the conversation on this topic at http://thepaganveil.com/forum/topics/what-do-the-gods-get-out-of-it
Squirrelly Productions hosts topical discussions over coffee at Reboot Café on Thor just south of the freeway the first Wednesday of every month. All are welcome to attend and enjoy pagan fellowship over a cup of shade-grown coffee or a latté.
Squirrelly decided to present this topic for discussion at their first Wednesday coffee at Reboot Café. The answers were interesting and varied.
The resident cynic of course, blurted out “Entertainment!” Several nearly spewed their drinks, which of course, only gave credence to his statement. After all, how many of us have not, at one time or another, felt that Deity had a good laugh at our expense?
Then the discussion became more serious, though it was hard to stay focused on the original question without addressing what Deity really is. Everyone seems to have their own ideas, even when it comes down to individual Deities. My concept of the Morrigan and how she appears to me, for example is very different from how some others perceive her as the wise Crone.
A number of people on a variety of paths (Hellenic, Wicca, Asatru) perceive a parent-child relationship, with humans in the role of children of course. In this sense the Gods are there to teach us, to help us grow for future lives. A Hellenic told a story of how Hera taught her a lesson on vanity by requiring her to cut her hair, while others cited an ancestral connection with Deity. While Deity may or may not be helping us toward a higher level of spirituality, this line of discussion begged the question of why. What does Deity get out of helping us in this manner? The best response was an analogy to parents getting pride out of watching their children grow, and the reward of teaching them. This ascribes a nurturance role to Deity that really doesn’t fit all of them. Aries or Loki as nurturing Gods is a somewhat difficult concept, at least for me.
The participants who saw Deity in this manner were all mothers, with strong nurturing motivations themselves. That raises the question of whether we perceive Deity in terms of Jungian archetypal images. As such, they exist as we perceive Them, and like certain quantum mechanical phenomena, perhaps Deity does not exist without us to believe in and perceive. In this manner of thinking, what Deity gets from their relationship with us, is everything: Their very existence.
Another participant saw Deity as a personification of energy and that the exchange of energy between mortals and Deity is what the Gods get out of the relationship. As mortals we do not work directly with Deity, but with energy. Deity gets more energy from worshipers than what it would have without worshippers and can therefore channel more energy as they see fit. One would think however, that the further a Being moves from having a material form, the more energy it must have (matter being converted to energy according to Einstein’s equations). Why would a Being of such immense energy need our paltry human contribution?
One person in the group brought up the idea that we cannot know the motivations of Deities. Another countered with the idea that we can look at their lore to understand their motivations. Undoubtedly the further removed a Being is from our Earthly level, the more powerful their energy level. Undoubtedly there are Beings of awesome power and unfamiliar energies so far removed from the human experience that they become unknowable and unfathomable to our limited senses and psychic abilities. But are these the Deities we relate to in our craft?
All these arguments imply that the Gods, at least the ones we can relate to, have motivations. This makes Deity much like us. Some want power; some want a nurturing relationship; some recognition. Most have Their own agenda that They are trying to achieve. Each Deity has a set of motivations unique to that Deity. This makes them psychologically just like humans; just like many of the other spiritual beings with which we share this and other planes of existence.
Plants will grow in the garden without our help, but not the plants we want. Some aspects of Deity are creating and growing the garden as they want it to grow. They have an agenda for us, and it is unlikely that Their various agendas are perfectly aligned. Some of Their agendas may actually conflict, such as in the myth of Prometheus versus Zeus.
Perhaps Poppy Palin said it best in Craft of the Wild Witch. When we take on a patron Goddess or God, we make a promise. We do not promise to worship necessarily, but we do promise, as fellow sentient beings, that “we will express their will, their way and their wisdom to the world. We are incarnate and they are not. We can make manifest change while they are not able to express themselves in a way considered substantial. We have the means of making a difference while on Earth while they may be given little credence in the modern frame of reference. Yet for all the disregard they are accustomed to experiencing in human realms, they have that which is most valuable to us: greater access to truths, to that which is hidden to our mortal eyes at present.”
They are our link to that which is beyond human perception. We are their link to this plane of existence. The relationship is symbiotic, with each of us getting from the other what we need.
Join the conversation on this topic at http://thepaganveil.com/forum/topics/what-do-the-gods-get-out-of-it
Squirrelly Productions hosts topical discussions over coffee at Reboot Café on Thor just south of the freeway the first Wednesday of every month. All are welcome to attend and enjoy pagan fellowship over a cup of shade-grown coffee or a latté.